06-Oct-96

Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.

NORSEMAN: BTW Excavatus, I saw your drawings they look good..

EXCAVATUS: Ah which drawings, the raft?

NORSEMAN: Excavatus: the ones that are on the TT pages..

EXCAVATUS: Hey LongBow have you looked into colloidal silver?

NORSEMAN: Colloidal silver?

LONGBOW: Yes, I will be able to experiment with some of the herbal medicine, which is only part of the subject

LONGBOW: No, can you give me a reference where I might look? I've been working with earthworms.

EXCAVATUS: And the drawings I did not know they were up yet, must have a look

NORSEMAN: Excavatus: I think they aren't up yet, but I think that it won't take long.

LONGBOW: Earthworms! that's one of my favorite subjects. I think you joined up after I did some of my stuff on them, especially easy ways to turn them into a basic food item.

EXCAVATUS: I know of a colloidal silver generator sold by a small electronic company. Actually there are a lot of MLM companies selling the C/S concentrate on the www

LONGBOW: I'll do a search after this. Thanks.

EXCAVATUS: I know of a company that has been doing earthworms full time for 5 years now in australia and it just gets better

NORSEMAN: Excavatus: do you know how they taste? :)

LONGBOW: I'm trying to think of the name of the foremost earthworm advocate here in the US I knew him well a few years ago; but his name isn't coming to me. Seems like John something or maybe not. Do you know who I'm talking about?

EXCAVATUS: No I don't eat them although they are edible I prefer to use them for other applications.

NORSEMAN: Excavatus: aha.. I wonder where the others are..

EXCAVATUS: Yes there have been a few books written by USA growers I think I if anyone a Charles Morgan comes to mind

LONGBOW: Oh yes! I did a prototype many years ago to clean, dry, and powder them. Very

high protein and no taste when added to other stuff. Makes good cookies and bread.

LONGBOW: No, not Morgan. I remember - Jim McNeeley. His big thing is to use them for recycling organic waste.

NORSEMAN: Never heard or read about this guys.

EXCAVATUS: Yeh you have to purge them like snails, which I do grow for eating. After all a snail is a top shelf grazer

EXCAVATUS: I use an earthworm application that is a waste conversion to high grade organic fertilizer

LONGBOW: Actually, my most consistent activity has been actually eating lots of insects, usually raw, and making notes on their taste, i.e. the common moth tastes almost identical to a little grass.

LONGBOW: Norseman, startup is soon. are you going to give op privilege to an additional person in case we loose you for a while

NORSEMAN: I will give you a op!

LONGBOW: OK

COSMIC: I am a listener & follower at this point as I don't think I have much information or skills to contribute. So, I will just follow along with what you-guys have to say.

COSMIC: Sure I'll give an op privilege to anyone. By the way. What is an op privilege?

LONGBOW: Cosmic, it allows one to control the channel and is needed since this channel is closed. You need a password to get in and all that.

COSMIC: How do I give away my op privilege? Do I have to do anything from this end?

SHADOW: I may just sit here today and watch, don't know

CARRIE: Cosmic, Mets, and Excavatus: is this your first time here?

COSMIC: Sure is. I'm a virgin at this IRC stuff, tho I work on computers all day long.

METS: Cosmic: I'm new to this IRC too

CARRIE: Long time Longbow!

LONGBOW: Yea Shadow, I've been lurking .

SHADOW: I hear you Longbow

CARRIE: You lurker you!

SHADOW: Yes, lurker

LONGBOW: maybe I should change my nickname to lurker!

LONGBOW: So, guys and gals, is there an agenda today?

CARRIE: I think we were going to talk about the permaculture

SHADOW: Well, what shall we talk about. You know, I've been noticing that there are a lot more people asking questions

CARRIE: I think that we could introduce ourselves to each other as we have some new members this time

COSMIC: Hey, I am a listener, observer, and follower here, until I find my way through this new experience. What are the main subjects for today? I am all ears.

LONGBOW: Well, my suggestion is that private chitchat use DCC and we pick a topic and stick to it. Only 45 minutes left.

ATOM: LongBow: I agree, my time is short.

SHADOW: Someone pick a subject. Carrie, pick one

NORSEMAN: LongBow: I think that Viola will show up in a few minutes

ATOM: Where's Excavatus, our teacher on permaculture?

CARRIE: How about safe places?

LONGBOW: What is the hottest item on TT-list now?

SHADOW: Safe places

NORSEMAN: LongBow: we don't pick a subject usually, but okay.

SHADOW: Yes, this is a good subject.

CARRIE: I think the safest place may be about 300 miles inland from an ocean on flat land.

LONGBOW: OK, what is the current consensus about safe places

SHADOW: Yes, maybe further

SHADOW: The waters are going to take over most places. Then you have the plates

CARRIE: Want to be near the water afterwards

LONGBOW: What does the TT web site say?

SHADOW: Have to stay away from earthquake areas, but then earthquakes will be abundant

COSMIC: I think the safest place in the US is east of the Rockies about 100-200 miles, North New Mexico.

CARRIE: Lots of food in them thar waves!

SHADOW: Yes there is. Just can't drink that much

CARRIE: Try shadow, try

METS: The Arizona, New Mexico area could be safe

SHADOW: Okay, smart butt. I'm not to cool on Arizona, don't know why

NORSEMAN: Spain would be safe in Europe.

CARRIE: I think that no matter where one goes, one is going to encounter some danger. I don't know if there will be any safe places

SHADOW: Carrie, didn't you say that you were going eventually to Arizona

NORSEMAN: Atom: which countries in Europe will be safe?

LONGBOW: Mets, that is currently my choice - four corners, but that's too obvious. Lots of chance for problems from STS folks.

CARRIE: Yes, Norse, south of the Apennines?

ATOM: Norseman: more or less none, it's going down.

SHADOW: I imagine a lot of people will try going to four corners

NORSEMAN: Yes, I know for sure that the country I live in will be under water after the PS

CARRIE: I own property in southern AZ, near some mountains. May be safe

COSMIC: It is my understanding that you have to get away from the mountains as just as they have welled-up dramatically in the past (do to earth plates colliding), they can be expected to do the same during/after PS. Also, if I heard it right, where the plates meet the ground will also get super hot.

SHADOW: Just remember, mountains will be coming down

METS: In general, what about staying on hilly areas?

LONGBOW: We need a more detail topographical map of the AZ, NM, CO area and then from that put the new geography on the web

CARRIE: Good idea, Longbow

SHADOW: Yes We need something with earthplates on it

ATOM: Mets: Hills are better than mountains, yes. Less chance to collapse.

LONGBOW: Yes Shadow, probably can find on the web

SHADOW: I'm hoping Longbow. I tried it one other time and couldn't find it

METS: Atom: yes, and don't get flooded over

CARRIE: This property may be OK then, it is just below the foothills

SHADOW: That sounds all right. I still have to scope out a place. Not sure yet where I will go

LONGBOW: Many, many folks are being called to the Colorado Springs area for the last 5 or 6 years. the particular place is at the base of a well known mountain. Why would one want to be at the base of a mountain with all those boulders and stuff coming down? I went there and checked it out.

SHADOW: Longbow, maybe they are destined to die.

COSMIC: Look at the map proposed by the Zetas as to how the continents will look after PS. The safe areas. Also, look at the new North & South Poles, & equator to figure out the future climates of the new

locations. If you choose to survive, and you believe this stuff, then you have to figure out how to get to those areas well before the Pole Shift.

SHADOW: Look at all the people flocking to Florida

CARRIE: I guess most of the earth population will be wiped out

SHADOW: Yes, most of them. I feel for them

CARRIE: You are so right, Cosmic. At least they won't have to suffer afterwards

NORSEMAN: Carrie: a lot of people.

SHADOW: I have seen many heading NW in visions

LONGBOW: Cosmic, remember that these places will still be very cold for a long time and very unstable due to the ice melt.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: You are right in that way, but what about the relatives etc..

SHADOW: Most relatives will not go

CARRIE: Lots of grief and heartbreak, Norse

LONGBOW: Shadow, same here

SHADOW: They will be left behind unfortunately

COSMIC: I love the mountains. But I do believe you/I have to give up our attachments to their beauty and go to the hilly or flatter areas a good distance away. Again, you do not want to be anywhere near where the plates come together.

SHADOW: But ourselves are the most important, for we will have to teach others should we survive. Everything will be depending on us, and everybody that is left

NORSEMAN: Shadow: you are right.

METS: I'm also having problem convincing relatives :(

SHADOW: Mets, either they will come to their senses or they won't, all you can do is try

ATOM: Mets: everybody has this problem :(

NORSEMAN: Mets: I don't think it's an easy task, but don't give up.

SHADOW: This is better than nothing, to try to convince them

LONGBOW: There is lots of flat ground in southern NM and AZ

NORSEMAN: Mets: if they start to think, that's a good sign.. you know what I mean?

METS: Yeah, I got a few more years left to do it.

CARRIE: also lots of flat land in the inland area of California

SHADOW: Mets, all you do is keep planting the seed and see if it grows, there is still time

LONGBOW: However, I'm concerned about all that rain, that flat ground flash floods.

SHADOW: California's bad

METS: Norseman: my sister is showing some sign :)

NORSEMAN: Carrie: but still a problem of major earthquakes in that area..

NORSEMAN: Mets: that's good..

COSMIC: Apparently, if ZetaTalk is true, there will be enduring coldness, which will be a big problem and quite uncomfortable for all trying to eek out a living. But, it certainly will be warmer towards the new equator, so we have to try and go to the safe areas close by. It will make survival easier, I think.

SHADOW: Yes

LONGBOW: Does anyone know how far inland the highest tidal wave will be along the Appalachian mountains?

CARRIE: I think about 200 miles, LongBow

SHADOW: I believe that the water will be to the Appalachian or however you spell it. I know, if you search those mountains, you'll find seashells. I've seen this

NORSEMAN: Shadow: you found seashells?

SHADOW: Yes. So this means, it has happened before

CARRIE: I live very close to the Chesapeake Bay. I do not plan to be here during the PS

COSMIC: Carrie: I'm a Californian and have lived in the inland areas too. That area is very active with fault lines, and in-between 2 mountain ranges, so I am certain that that area would not be safe. Also, if the waves are large enough, what is to prevent the ocean from flooding the CA Central Valley.

CARRIE: That is true, Cosmic

NORSEMAN: Shadow: Velikovsky has wrote about it.

SHADOW: Really. I haven't read much, but I know the shells can be found there so this was once the coast line.

NORSEMAN: There are some excerpts of 2 of his books on the The Word page.

LONGBOW: When you drill an oil well in the mountains of Montana, you get sea shells two miles down!

SHADOW: Really. I'll have to check it out. Two miles down huh?

LONGBOW: The sea shell thing is true almost everywhere.

SHADOW: Really

CARRIE: What about central and northern Texas?

SHADOW: I'm just going by what I have seen No, not Texas

COSMIC: Carrie: I adore where I live: CA wine country. But if I find out that all this is true, then I have to let go of my love for my surroundings, and move far away, east of the Rockies & far west of the Mississippi River valley. That is the closest "safe area" for Californians, I believe.

LONGBOW: Yes, central and northern Texas. But this planet is very old, could have got there a looong time ago.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: that's real evidence, if people say that you 'It never happened', you could say to them - 'I found some seashells'..

METS: Texas is not a safe place?

SHADOW: I know Norseman. No, I believe Texas will be bad, but I could be wrong. Just a feeling

LONGBOW: The geologists have lots of alternative answers other than Planet-X

SHADOW: Come inland more than Texas

NORSEMAN: Atom: will you be staying in your own country before/after the PS?

METS: Uh-man, what about western and the panhandle area?

SHADOW: That's better

COSMIC: Sea shells, on top of mountains, and 2 miles below the current surface of the planet? Heck yea. The world has not been as solid, and stable as what we grew up to believe. It gets up and walks around and tumbles just like a little kid.

ATOM: Norseman: yes, probably.

SHADOW: Yes

LONGBOW: I think that perhaps north-east Texas (which is hilly and inland) is worth checking out.

METS: That would be a little bit more inland I think

SHADOW: Yes

NORSEMAN: Atom: it's better for me to leave, way to dangerous, high waves etc.

SHADOW: Top of Texas is all right

CARRIE: Atom: have you thought about emigrating to the States?

METS: LongBow: thanks I check it out

ATOM: Norseman: agree, NL is not safe. Here's not safe too, but acceptable, I think.

COSMIC: I think the ZetaTalk maps show that a good portion of Texas will be underwater, or is it that more land will rise along the coast? I will re-check the maps latter today.

SHADOW: Yes check them. Lower Texas is bad, at least from what I see

LONGBOW: Shadow, yes, I'm very familiar with Texas panhandle; however, it is on what is called the "cap rock" and I don't know what that implies re earth quakes and plate movement.

SHADOW: I don't know

METS: The NM/Texas border could be safe

COSMIC: Shadow: That's what I was thinking. Also, the new North Pole will be what is currently off pretty far to the east of Texas, right?

NORSEMAN: What about the other parts of the worlds. as many people read the TT pages. people from Europe, Africa etc. etc.

METS: Cosmic: I think the new NP will off Brazil

LONGBOW: I really believe that we need at least 3 alternative plans that can be chosen from in the final week.

CARRIE: Sounds like a good idea

ATOM: LongBow: you're right. More plans, better choices.

SHADOW: I think for one, we need to tell each other where we will be before the end

NORSEMAN: LongBow: if I am right we have something like that on the TT pages.

SHADOW: Each of us should have a place within the 7 week period

CARRIE: If possible, we should try to locate in the same safe area as each other, if possible

NORSEMAN: Shadow: yes, you are right about that.

SHADOW: Yes but not all of us are in the know to where we are going to yet

CARRIE: But we have plenty of time to work that out

NORSEMAN: Carrie: you are right..

SHADOW: I believe this will come to us, but I know I will be the last to get out of here

NORSEMAN: but time goes fast.

SHADOW: Yes. Helping people, you know, that's what I'll be doing

CARRIE: Problem is how to prepare a site when one is thousands of miles away from it

NORSEMAN: And we have a lot of things to arrange etc., before.

SHADOW: Well, we will most likely leave our areas to new areas within the 7 week period

SHADOW: Then we will contact each other and go there

CARRIE: I had a vision where I was helping people get on a ship

SHADOW: 7 weeks will be all right cause we will work together

COSMIC: Mets: that is good if you are in the US. Then, we should be as close, or closer to the new equator, and will pick up more warmth for food growing. But another important point, is to check out the maps and try and determine where volcanoes will be and the direction of the new jet stream. You certainly do not want to be down wind from the flow of ash.

CARRIE: 7 weeks will give us time to put together a site

LONGBOW: Shadow, that is correct. I plan to stay mobile as long as possible. In the months ahead of the comet becoming obvious movement may be restricted and property confiscated. Only a group could afford to set up more than one alternative site.

SHADOW: Yes

NORSEMAN: Shadow: but we should keep in mind that their would be a last days panic.

SHADOW: But we will avoid it, don't worry. The last days will be the last week

CARRIE: So we should be set up and

operational about a month ahead of time

SHADOW: Yes, this is right

NORSEMAN: Carrie: yes, you're right.

SHADOW: The first week of the 7 will be when we start

SHADOW: I will be along during the last week

LONGBOW: And before that, store what is needed for the last minute.

SHADOW: Yes, I will be getting the people together to come

CARRIE: We should identify about 3 or 4 potential safe areas, research them and plan accordingly

SHADOW: Yes, most definitely

LONGBOW: Carrie: yes

SHADOW: I will meet all of you in the last part. Will bring around 30 people

CARRIE: We will need to develop ways to avoid STS detection

COSMIC: I think we/you/ should decide soon what to do and where to go, and give ourselves several years to get there. You know pulling up family and all, and putting down new roots. But, definitely do not save it for the last minute, days, weeks.

SHADOW: I will know. I will know these people. It will only be certain people. Cosmic, yes, most will be gone, but I will be gathering people, getting them grouped together. We will also be bringing supplies

with us

NORSEMAN: Carrie: yes, you are right, but I think we will know what to do

COSMIC: Hey, I've been on line a lot now. Is there only a limited number of seats here? Should I get out and let someone else in. Please let me know.

CARRIE: No limit, Cosmic

LONGBOW: What I am wondering is when the group will be able to start doing definite, planned things, i.e. reliable research on sites, materials to store, ways to get there, etc.

CARRIE: And when to go to them

SHADOW: We will all know. When we have the area, we can ship things there. This will be no problem. One of us will be there. Slowly we will join together like I said

NORSEMAN: Shadow: yup

VIOLA: Longbow - planned things? We have check lists, what do you mean specifically?

SHADOW: Visions will become more and we will all know what to do

VIOLA: Is this group under the impression that we will have a group site?

SHADOW: Yes

VIOLA: I think that dangerous. We'd be overrun.

SHADOW: No, not necessarily. We will know who to bring and who not

NORSEMAN: Viola: I think that some of us will be together.

VIOLA: How would you keep undesirables away?

SHADOW: It will just be us that know, not outsiders

VIOLA: Oh! you mean it would be by invitation?

COSMIC: Shadow: at this point, I am not sure if I will be there, as first I have to find out if all this is TRUE. (You know, it is an individual thing). Then, if true, I have to decide if I want to make a go of the new earth, or make my peace and check out.

SHADOW: We will bring certain people with us, yes Viola, sort of

VIOLA: Longbow, did you mean that certain places would be called "safe", certain groups would collect money and lead activities?

LONGBOW: I think that in specific planning that multiple sites would evolve; but we have to start being specific at some point or all is just hot air!

SHADOW: I understand Cosmic. It is hard

VIOLA: Specific: I though to start a "training" site, and test what we recommend.

SHADOW: We will suggest many areas, then check them out and pick the best

VIOLA: I plan to make video clips, put them on the Internet, etc.

SHADOW: Yes, this is good

NORSEMAN: Viola: good idea

VIOLA: This way many can learn - not just the group that is actually at the site. One site becomes many, in that way.

SHADOW: Have to be careful of who comes though. Yes, one site expands, and then another

COSMIC: Shadow: true, but very entertaining, too. Also, the soul may have other things to do.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: you are right about that.

SHADOW: True, but the true soul will know what to do and when

COSMIC: Viola: terrific idea about video clips!

LONGBOW: The subject has been pretty much limited to safe sites. Real research must be done to determine potentials. This is not material for the WWW.

SHADOW: That's right

VIOLA: I'm not so much thinking about this site or that, as about a "virtual site".

SHADOW: We will be overcrowded with people and there will be other sites for them to turn to other than us

VIOLA: What I mean is that it is portable, can be moved, can be set up at the last minute.

SHADOW: Yes

VIOLA: What is permanent is what is built afterwards, the more permanent housing, etc.

SHADOW: It has to be more or less mobile

LONGBOW: That is my personal plan Viola

SHADOW: Yes

NORSEMAN: Shadow: yes. They will know where to go after some point in time.

SHADOW: There are many groups doing the same thing

VIOLA: Think of this. Folks gather what they need ahead of time. as the moment draws near, then go to a safe AREA of the country/world

SHADOW: Yes, I figured the last 7 weeks

VIOLA: Then after the shift, they set up tents, wooden hydroponics trenches, etc., worm beds, etc.

SHADOW: I will of course be the last. I will go the last week, yes

VIOLA: If they have to move during the pre-shift hours, no big problem!

LONGBOW: That has been what has been discussed so far. We need sites to store for afterward.

SHADOW: Right

VIOLA: If they have to move as their site has been discovered - no problem!

SHADOW: 7 weeks are good enough. No one has to leave a job until then. The ones that will be convinced will be convinced

VIOLA: Who would be doing the storing? Us? The government? Groups?

SHADOW: No, us. We can't let the gov. do it. Can't trust them. Have to rely on ourselves on this one

VIOLA: Hypothetical question: if any group stores for the future, will this be confiscated by either FEMA or STS groups?

SHADOW: No

LONGBOW: The gov is already doing it for selected groups of individuals.

COSMIC: Shadow is correct.

SHADOW: Don't think so

NORSEMAN: Shadow: yep, we will know what to do.

VIOLA: Lazarus found a memo on the Internet that indicated that congress/white house were thinking of passing laws against "hoarding".

SHADOW: I know we will, we have abilities that we haven't even used yet

VIOLA: No shit! So if one prepared by storing, as a group, it could all be snatched away at the last minute!

SHADOW: What they don't know won't kill them. It won't happen, we're smarter than that

LONGBOW: I agree shadow

SHADOW: With all of us as one, we can do it. I know the power we have inside us

VIOLA: My thought is that the best "hoarding" is non-hybrid seeds, plants growing and producing these seeds, etc. on a family or extended family basis.

SHADOW: Been learning a lot lately

NORSEMAN: Shadow: yes, you are right.

SHADOW: Yes

VIOLA: This then won't be snatched away, as it seems to be small potatoes and plus is not a thing easily carried.

LONGBOW: Viola, that would be confiscated, I'd bet.

SHADOW: Right. No, we will be all right, believe me

VIOLA: Would one carry away a worm bed? One would look for sacks of dried beans, etc.

SHADOW: The worm beds will be hidden if necessary. We can figure out things as we go

NORSEMAN: Shadow: worm beds?

VIOLA: If non-hybrid plants would be confiscated, then all would be confiscated! What to do?

SHADOW: Yes, camouflage it. It can be done

COSMIC: Yes, open-pollinated seeds are the best in this type of scenario. But, one should become familiar with how to pollinate individual vegetable in the next few years. I do a little bit of that.

SHADOW: Military uses camouflage all the time, why can't we

LONGBOW: One can't live on only a worm bed; but hydroponics has been specifically mentioned on the list of things to be confiscated, as well as everything that might be useful from farms of any sort.

VIOLA: What if families just set this stuff up in their basements. Actually ordered the supplies to self-sustenance, but set up someplace else other than where the purchase site was. In other words, order or buy in town, set up on the farm.

NORSEMAN: Shadow: yes, camouflage is a good idea..

VIOLA: Then, hydroponics and worm beds or fish tanks in the barn or basement, no one knows about it!

LONGBOW: Camouflage is no good. Technology looks right through.

VIOLA: Cosmic: Do you! You must write up a piece for TT! Non-hybrid pollinating, etc.

SHADOW: Yes, we can do it. Don't worry, they'll be looking in other places. Don't worry about it

VIOLA: Hydroponics is one the list of things to be confiscated!!! What list, there is truly a list!!! Ohmygosh!

COSMIC: I do not believe non-hybrid plants will be confiscated. This is something that would happen with a huge, robust government, devoted to big business. After the PS, the government will be much, much less that what it is now.

NORSEMAN: We will know what to do, Shadow.

VIOLA: Maybe the "list" is thinking about big scale hydroponics, etc., as in businesses. If folks have a setup in their basement, the government would not even know!

SHADOW: The government will be trying to figure out what they are going to be doing with themselves. Trying to protect their butts so we won't really have to worry

VIOLA: I have a father-in-law who has a hydroponics setup on his sun porch. Grows all they need plus for the neighbors.

LONGBOW: Yes, there is a very long and specific list obtained through the FOI act. Accidentally got by the gards.

NORSEMAN: Viola: yep, you are right. How do you think that other governments will respond on it?

VIOLA: Looking at the house from the outside, no one would know!

SHADOW: Yes they will Viola. They can tell when there is too much heat coming from the basement. They have helicopters that detect this type of thing

COSMIC: Viola: I have been an organic home gardener for 20+ years, but I still consider myself unknowledable. Though I do grow & cross some of my own seeds. Writing and article, don't know about that.

CARRIE: Setting up beforehand seems like an impossible challenge, given the government, STS, etc.

VIOLA: Ooo, Longbow, do you think we should post that on TT? I think confiscation would happen BEFORE the shift, not after except by gangs of STS, etc. Or even hungry folks, desperate, etc. Eating the seed rather than growing stuff, hungry and desperate, etc.

METS: How about doing all the gathering gradually over the years so it wouldn't be noticeable?

VIOLA: The government can't run helicopters over all the farms, etc. And think about it, most barns have cows and chickens steaming away, so hydroponics cultures would not be apparent, would be hidden.

COSMIC: My sense is that Viola is correct, concerning time of confiscation, as the government will be on crutches after the shift.

LONGBOW: Viola, yes, confiscation well before the shift. No, publish on TT maybe 6 months before confiscation starts.

VIOLA: However, what a heartbreak to gather stuff together for one's group only to have it taken away last minute! One should have more than one store, etc.

METS: I'll be hard for the gov to confiscate every body

VIOLA: I know someone who carries 2 wallets - one with little $ and some old cards, another with the real thing. A pickpocket would find the fako wallet, and not look for the real one. We are already advising folks to due a bit of bait and switch. Having more than one stash is advisable, for sure.

NORSEMAN: Viola: I understand what you mean.

LONGBOW: Mets, in a way, they've already blown it. Also many third world countries governments don't have our resources for such activities and the word will get out.

METS: Viola: that's a good idea

VIOLA: Mets: righton! Gradual, and whomever does catalog ordering via the mail, etc., should not be the one storing the stuff. Bait and switch.

COSMIC: Viola: Concerning eating the garden seed because after the PS you are so hungry: still a wise gardener should store away a good handful of seed, as that is all you need for an acre+ of food. Really. It doesn't take much quantity of seed for a ton of food.

VIOLA: LongBow, do you think there will be groups advertising their location, etc., and coordinating matters beforehand?

LONGBOW: Yes, but they would be fools.

VIOLA: My thought is that no matter how good intentioned, this types of arrangement could really be subject to takeover at any time, by government or even by infiltration by others.

NORSEMAN: Viola: I think that some groups will advertise, but some groups not, Ii think it depends on the people in the group(s)

VIOLA: Takeovers are rampant in our society. Look at inventors who lose control of their invention. I watched that within ISCNI, how the group moved over a year until it was no longer under Lindemann at all!

LONGBOW: that's why my plan is to contribute; but individually keep my options open till the last minute.

CARRIE: Same here, Longbow

VIOLA: Longbow: my feelings exactly! I mean to spend my time beforehand researching and actually trying out the various solution sets. Then I'll be helping myself and my loved ones. As for the exact location where I end up, no comment publicly, my thoughts.

CARRIE: I'm working on some healing modalities that may work after the PS

VIOLA: LongBow: you and I are thinking alike!

LONGBOW: However, individuals will have to contribute skills money, hiding places, and on and on. Participants communicate by private means.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: what do you think about them,??? What will help??

VIOLA: Carrie: this is your individual contribution, which you're trained for and also by your life experiences so you know what works! Very important for the aftertime.

CARRIE: Ways to help the sick and injured afterwards as there will be little/no medical help available.

NORSEMAN: Indeed very important..

COSMIC: I do not think we have to much to worry about takeovers as long as members of a group are not breaking any laws. So, one should do his/her best to keep their noses squeaky clean.

VIOLA: I suspect that groups will be composed of individual who have found each other, made plans, sometimes at the last minute.

CARRIE: I want to teach others what I learn

VIOLA: I tell this to folks, do your part at what you are good at, and don't worry too much about linking up with others as things will come together at the last minute.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: people will need to know how to make their own medicines (alternative)

METS: Viola: I agree. I think groups consist of close friends and relatives

VIOLA: Cosmic: yes, and no activities that bring one under scrutiny, legal or otherwise.

COSMIC: Right.

CARRIE: That is part of it, Norseman. However, there will not be anything to make any medicine out of afterwards.

VIOLA: For instance, buying tons of hydroponics equipment from a seller would put one on a list, I suspect.

CARRIE: At least, not the stuff that meds are made of now.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: so I think they will have to start with it several weeks before the PS? Carrie: herbal medicines

VIOLA: For instance, maybe at the last minute one finds a new friend that has a family farm but they have no non-hybrid seeds. Suddenly they are a group! 1 week ahead of the shift, mayhap.

CARRIE: Norseman: Will not matter. What will we do when supplies run our? I do plan to stock up on some supplies, though

VIOLA: Then maybe groups will find each other even afterwards, share resources and know- how.

LONGBOW: I think stored materials like materials for hydroponics must be acquired over a long time and hidden. Maybe when it's safe, then folks will be more open with each other, letting each other know what they have, etc.

COSMIC: Correct LongBow.

NORSEMAN: Carrie: good idea.

METS: Viola: yeah, groups will change and evolve over time

VIOLA: Isn't the 3 way hand-off the safest? For instance, one buys, one gives to another to take to a third. All know of each other, but if one tried to trace the purchase through the buyer, really hard to tell unless torture or some such was used, unlikely. We are advising folks to bait and switch like this, etc.

LONGBOW: As I've said many times, I see 3 periods. First -now till the government starts openly confiscating using the martial laws now in place. Second - the pole shift itself. And last - building for the new world.

COSMIC: Yes, unlikely. We are small potatoes. Stay in small groups, I think.

VIOLA: I wonder if there will be organized groups, with the best of intentions, who get taken over by either the government or the establishment or just plain mean minded sorts. Then there may be the organized groups that have anything but good intentions! For instance, set up a group, attract good hearted hard-working sorts, and use them!

NORSEMAN: Viola: that's something that could happen.

METS: That could happen

VIOLA: In the end, the controlling folks who set it up kick out the contributors. I've had a thought about that - at the last minute folks who contributed their money go to the site, only to find nothing there!

NORSEMAN: Viola: I hope that such things won't happen

VIOLA: Longbow: I agree with those phases! The most dangerous is now, the martial law/confiscation

phase. The shift everyone will be braced for, that is anyone who is aware or cares to be aware.

COSMIC: I think the smaller groups would be better, as then you can get to know each member, and maybe can become aware if a service to self member is in the crowd. In a large group, how can you get to know everyone?

VIOLA: Confiscation is something that those in this country, US, could never expect. Although there is a lot of talk on the Internet about NWO, etc., and what is being planned by the establishment.

LONGBOW: Well, that hasn't really started yet, only intelligence gathering. Martial law won't happen until the President hands power over in total (that's the current law) to FEMA.

VIOLA: TWA800 being shot down by a missile is a case in point. NWO stuff, most think. Cosmic: small groups, extended family, is good from a lot of perspectives. They can move about, shift location for one thing.

NORSEMAN: Viola: do you have an idea how the situation in Europe will be before the shift?

VIOLA: Plus as you said, know each other. Someone said that over 300 or so, it gets to be a mega groups. The American Indians kept their towns under 300 so that council would be meaningful, etc. Some of them did, my understanding.

NORSEMAN: Viola: as we have different governments, etc.

VIOLA: Norseman: worldwide, as crop shortages occur, there will be the same scene, I think.

METS: Large groups are more lightly to gov intervention

NORSEMAN: Viola: yes, I think you are right..

VIOLA: The strong take from the weak, and charity will cease to a great extent - no food handouts to starving countries or individuals, etc.

COSMIC: My "vision" (it's really no vision), my idea is a group of 50 or less. Then after some time, good groups who are definitely in the service to other camps, can begin to combine into larger communities. What do you think?

NORSEMAN: Cosmic: it's an idea.

VIOLA: Same rules as today, as I don't think the shortages will get so bad that mass starvation is the rule, just shortages. I suspect that those on welfare, charity cases, will be the first to suffer. Starvation in Africa, where ship loads of grain came in - I'll bet that will cease! Cosmic: I think after the shift that these groups will find each other, no question, and it's a good pre-shift-post scheme. Will work. Maybe as crops shortages occur, we'll shift from eating meat so much to more vegetarian patterns. This has been speculated as one reason the US is pushing this - less meat, less fat, more fiber and grain. Well, it happens to be healthy, so its win-win, really.

COSMIC: If ZetaTalk is true, then there will be no charity to other countries. The event will be so devastating that there will hardly be a government. How will they collect taxes, when money is worthless?

VIOLA: I can't see a government, except local, in place after the shift.

METS: It'll be tough for 3rd world countries

VIOLA: Velikovsky tells from the Egyptian papyrus that maids wore their mistresses jewelry, took from the rich, no law and order at all.

LONGBOW: I suspect that bad weather causing food shortages will be the first solid sign as governments attempt to deal with hungry people.

VIOLA: Velikovsky reports that there was a lot of banditry on the highways, too.

NORSEMAN: No government, I think that many people won't trust the government after the shift.

VIOLA: But we're familiar with that lifestyle from literature, for sure. Just look at the American old west - lawless except for a local guy or two, etc. LongBow: dealing with hungry people may be an excuse to put a lot of marital law type rules in place, confiscation of farms, etc. We are seeing bigger and bigger farms too, maybe part of the trend.

LONGBOW: That's exactly the scenario

VIOLA: Easier to take over a big mega-farm than arrange the legalities for little farms.

COSMIC: It is my understanding that after PS, you don't have to worry about the government, only roving gangs that will do anything to survive. A purely selfish crowd.

VIOLA: Plus, at least here in Cal, the big farmers are all republicans already :-) probably part of the NWO to begin with

NORSEMAN: Cosmic: but not everyone would be selfish..

COSMIC: Yes, the assets are greater on a mega-farm, so that would be the target.

VIOLA: Cosmic: roving gangs after the shift, yes, and here again a small group that is mobile is the best off! Even a small family group can find that they have been discovered and have to pack off to a different site.

NORSEMAN: Viola: what's the connection between the NWO and the Republicans, as far as I know a lot of Republicans are rich etc.

LONGBOW: Norseman, it only takes one bullet to take you out of the game!

COSMIC: Well, my picture of a roving gang is the Mad Max scenario. I am not talking here about poor, homeless, destroyed people, roaming around trying to survive.

VIOLA: I suspect folks in the cities will have a hard time not being under the hand of a NWO mechanism

NORSEMAN: LongBow: I know what you mean. So I have to know how to defend myself in some way?

VIOLA: Can't escape except over bridges and the like, and folks may be coerced into following orders, etc.

LONGBOW: Viola, I agree

VIOLA: Country or rural living is more difficult to control, as the government doesn't have enough resources, etc. Norseman: more likely to be an establishment person, as have more to lose, etc., so mentally will appreciate the NWO concept, go with it, etc.

NORSEMAN: I don't appreciate their concept!

VIOLA: Cosmic: Mad Max yes, a good analogy. Roving, starving folks looking to join for the good of all will not be the problem, will probably be adopted by STO groups. So, we are really concluding that small groups - rural - gather stuff gradually - bait and switch - self sustenance practice - portability - is the best!

COSMIC: Hey, you condensed it all nicely. Good job.

LONGBOW: In planning for after the PS, if you expect to take on additional others, you have to acquire additional material, like hydroponics, light, power, than needed initially.

METS: Viola: several networks of small groups that keep in touch with each other

NORSEMAN: Viola: yes

VIOLA: So, we are likewise concluding that large publicly known groups - city -ostentatious buying patterns - dependence on the establishment - and site permanent - is a problem!

LONGBOW: Agree, small groups

NORSEMAN: Mets: yep.. several networks

VIOLA: LongBow: yes, plan for expansion, and good word of advice!

LONGBOW: Yes!

VIOLA: Expansion might be the ability to manufacture what one needs. If one has light, and know-how, then perhaps one can manufacture say, more windmills.

LONGBOW: Site placement however and at least 3 sites for the small group is the ideal.

COSMIC: Yes LongBow. I think you would have to be careful who to take on as you have to be realistic about your assets/supplies. But in ZetaTalk, the Zetas say help all the wandering children you come across. Compassion for the children, as they may be without family & home and hope.

VIOLA: I worry about what we don't have a solution for yet - like breakable light bulbs, but arc- lamps could maybe be run from the lead in pencils! I'm sure solutions will come forward before the time.

VIOLA: LongBow: yes! Alternate stashes, and alternate sites, and some of them not known to all.

METS: Also have to find ways for communications

VIOLA: Best would be if the groups could communicate with each other via short wave radio, so if they get separated they can find each other.

LONGBOW: Communications = digital ham radio with encryption

VIOLA: Perhaps one of the group could go out and collect those that get separated, based on short wave communications at certain specified times.

METS: Viola: yes

VIOLA: Cosmic: yes, STO groups would be expected to collect orphaned kids, etc.

VIOLA: We're winding down. What was discussed before I came? Excavatus was hoping to join and talk permaculture.

LONGBOW: So, Norseman, very good session!

NORSEMAN: Yep, it was..

VIOLA: I'll say! You're a super contributor, LongBow!

NORSEMAN: Viola: we talked about safe places.

METS: Maybe eventually we could start trading b/t groups...to each other out

VIOLA: Met: what do you mean, trading b/t groups? I'm confused

METS: Viola: if one group need something and vice versa. We could set up some type of trading system. That could be something for the long term

VIOLA: Mets; trading, yes! But the traders must be aware that they are public, and known, like catalog buying. However, this would be very useful toward the end! Like flea markets, etc. Basically, any public face must be prepared to disappear at the end, and not be linked to the stash!

METS: Yeah, something like that...if one group run out of food the other offer assistance

VIOLA: In particular seed and the like. I envision being public to help folks get the right equipment, ideas especially, just before hand! My role, educators, prototype site, etc.

METS: I'll get my contributions ready soon